How can anyone be so sure about getting an Islamic Mortgage

[hester708]

The AMJA released a FATWA 8 years ago regarding these Muslim mortgage companies. While granted they were 8 years ago, after due diligence, most of the companies on the list STILL have those violations.

Everything is too muddy and nothing with the exception of Ameen Housing has any true 100% halal mortgages. I understand that this is due to the system of the west, and that these companies (in my opinion) started off with a true intention of solving this dilemma of Muslims living in the US and so on.

But till this day, I dare not even touch anything from these companies and conventional mortgages, still too risk. So whats the darned solution? Rent for the rest of my life?

 

[thisisthexfiles]

@hester708 I mean you could theoretically make a plan to save/invest a set amount of money for some years and work on getting halal loans from family and friends
and make the purchase when the market is right.

Also I thought how this could be another benefit of networking and making connections.

 

[kendraw]

@thisisthexfiles Yep. Colloquial knowledge days housing market has always bumped down about every ~10y (either due to crash or self adjustment in the market). Better to please Allah than to please the self.

 

[annache]

@thisisthexfiles I dont agree, a good way to lose friends and cause disagreements in family is by borrowing money from (or lending to) them.

 

[thisisthexfiles]

@annache Ye that is true but I guess you could show them that you can pay them back. (Once you are able) And the only reason you’re borrowing from them is not to engage in interest.

 

[annache]

@thisisthexfiles But as you know I dont think the prohibition on exploitive riba extends to modern interest in financial markets.

 

[scttlttl]

@hester708 What's wrong with renting? Why do you desire home ownership, especially if most paths to it are sinful?

If you're determined to buy, have you considered lease purchase?

 

[resjudicata]

@scttlttl Because you’re stuck paying up to a third (or even more) if your salary paying off your landlords mortgage. Not only that, you don’t have much of a say in how to customize your living space, you can be forced to move, and you’re not gaining any equity

 

[scttlttl]

@resjudicata

Because you’re stuck paying up to a third (or even more) if your salary paying off your landlords mortgage.

I wonder if that counts as participating in their sin... Probably not. But the system is hard to escape.

you don’t have much of a say in how to customize your living space

It depends on the type of contract and the local laws.

you can be forced to move

Same.

you’re not gaining any equity

Like I said, how about a lease purchase?

 

[resjudicata]

@hester708 What's that? Another non-scholar disagrees with something scholars have already given a ruling on? Gotcha. I should totally go with what you (someone who clearly has not studied Islam formally) say over an actual 'alim.

 

[resjudicata]

Many scholars disagree with the fatwa that AMJA made. It's hardly a universally accepted ruling. Maybe do some research before making condescending replies to people.

 

[fatherof3]

@resjudicata Ya scholars disagree on a lot of issues. I'm not gonna sit there and take a tally of who's for and against an issue. If OP wants to make life hard on him/herself then so be it. I have my fatwa from Sh. Yusuf Qardawi, my local sheikhs, and an entire fiqh council. But for some people, that's just not enough. So I'm sorry OP, you're stuck renting all your life or save up.
This day and age, people have problems with fatwas of scholars, but go on reddit for random opinions.

 

[annache]

@fatherof3 Totally agree with you, those who say there is a consensus (ijma) that interest=riba are being intellectually dishonest.

 

[resjudicata]

@annache Yes, but this is bigger than even the riba or renting vs owning issue. This is about laypeople who have some criticism against one scholar or a group of them just because another group of scholars criticized them. These laypeople are such bc they don't have any understanding to the depth and vastness of scholarly discourse. They don't know Arabic let alone 'usool al-fiqh. They don't understand that disagreement among scholars invalidate any of them.

Rather, it gives those of us who have no formal knowledge on the relevant Islamic sciences a choice for ourselves and our families on what to do without imposing on others or making them feel as if they are more or less than us. There's a reason there are at least four madahab, and there's a reason that scholars even disagree on how strict you should be in following any madhab.

These are things that give us a sense of direction (e.g. what exactly counts as riba) in our religious beliefs and practices without breaking them (e.g. it's established that riba is haraam with maybe some exception).

 

[annache]

@resjudicata Yes, riba is haram. However Prof Farooq here does some heavy duty scholarly research and makes a good case here in the Arab Law Quarterly that most scholars have gone down the wrong path in asserting that all interest is riba. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1412753

Riba is really like loan sharking and predatory lending upon the poor today.

For those of us in finance - when scholars say say interest is haram but a time dependent deferred markup (murabaha) is not - thats a contradictory puzzle. And of course money and the commodities it buys have time value. Its resolved by the realization that riba was about exploitation.

 

[resjudicata]

@annache First, this really isn't about riba as it is about "illiteracy" among Muslims when it comes to matters of fiqh, 'aqidah, and other Islamic sciences. I also never said that all interest is considered riba. I'm already aware that many words in Arabic do not have direct translations to English. That's true for every language. You will not always find a direct translation.

The big issue here is someone trying to cause problems because s/he thinks s/he is knowledgeable enough to criticize a scholar or group of them but probably doesn't even know Arabic him/herself.

 

[annache]

@resjudicata I agree that there are many volumes of accumulated scholarly fiqh baggage accumulated over the centuries. I recall reading through some of the debate between Ibn Rushd (Avicenna) and el-Ghazali about the incoherence of the (Greek) philosophers.

The original subject here was Islamic mortgages and thats what attracted me. There are too many Muslims disadvantaged by assertions that they cannot take reasonable loans or make reasonable investments.

"someone trying to cause problems" - well secular academics thrive on debate and schools of thought, while Islamic scholars seem to like taqlid. I am suspicious of people who say - dont argue, because I know more than you ... I agree there are some illiterate rants on Reddit, and sometimes there are legitimate criticisms. And sometimes supposed scholars issue a fatwa to kill Mickey Mouse.

For myself, I think Islamic scholars should place more emphasis on ethics, where the world surely needs further direction, and less on what people eat and wear and similar daily activities, including more technical subjects like finance.

 

[crazycatlady76]

@hester708 There was a couple a few years ago that made an ebook about how they bought their house in a direct buy the halal way. It seems a bit risky but considering the economy and housing market might be something to consider. Essentially they were in an area where there were a lot of home foreclosures, they found a home they were interested in and agreed to buy the home in an installment sale directly from the seller. A real estate attorney can draft up the necessary dpcuments. It would get the home out of foreclosure and enable a way for the buyer to buy at a set amount without using interest. Advantage to the seller bc they don't have a huge tax burden since the purchase is broken down over time.

 

[annache]

@hester708 Is it reasonable to assert as some scholars do that interest in modern financial markets is the same as riba al jahliya (exhorbitant redoubling of unpaid debt which exploited and burdened poor debtors) at the time of the prophet? No, it isnt.

 

[dwd467]

@hester708 You should do your own research and speak to each company to understand how they structure things, how they make it halal. To my understanding AMJA's ruling has not been based on full research and only on preliminary review of each company's website. It takes a more indepth analysis to determine if it is halal or not, islamic finance is not just saying Bismillah, there is alot more to it, and without review of all the contracts and structuring process, no one should be in a position to issue out a Fatwa.
At the end of the day it comes down to your personal niat. There is a non-profit that specializes in Sharia Structuring that can help with home financing. I think they are called ijaracdc, my sister purchased a home with their help. I would check out the non profit first, since they do not have a financial incentive to "make the sale", they are probably more concerned about making it halal.