G&M: RRSPs are getting a bum rap as a tax trap

mtainmn43

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Thoughts? https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glo...-get-a-bum-rap-as-a-tax-trap/article37778443/

Regret is something you're supposed to feel for not contributing to RRSPs.

But for years now, Jamie Golombek has been hearing from retirees who rue the day they started down the road of using registered retirement savings plans and, in turn, registered retirement income funds (RRIF).

"I get e-mails about it, I get phone calls about it and I get rants on web pages about it," says the managing director of tax and estate planning at Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. "They're from people who are paying taxes of something like 50 per cent on every dollar they take out of their RRIF. They're angry and they say, 'I should never have done this.'"

There is a Rodney Dangerfield-ification of RRSPs happening. A long-term decline in usage of RRSPs highlights the loss of respect. But unless you're in a low income bracket, you probably need RRSPs as part of your retirement savings.

Mr. Golombek's latest research highlights how RRSPs are no worse than other savings options if your tax rate is the same in the year you contribute to your plan as when you withdraw money. Most people will have a lower tax rate in retirement, which means they'll have a bigger benefit from RRSPs.

Mr. Golombek asks you to imagine you have $3,000 of pretax income to put into both an RRSP and a tax-free savings account (TFSA), which a growing number of people regard as a better retirement savings tool. You'll have $3,000 for the RRSP on an after-tax basis because of the tax deduction you get for making the contribution (this assumes your tax deduction goes into your RRSP and isn't spent elsewhere).

Your $3,000 pretax money for the TFSA becomes a net $2,000 if we assume a 33.3-per-cent tax rate.

Let's say you make 5 per cent on both investments over a year. Your $3,000 RRSP grows to $3,150, or $2,100 after applying your 33.3-per-cent tax rate on withdrawals. Meanwhile, the TFSA grows by 5 per cent and leaves you with the same $2,100 (no tax applies on a TFSA withdrawal). Mr. Golombek did a third example using a non-registered account. Here the $3,000 pretax investment turns into $2,083 on a net after-tax basis (assuming the increase in value is treated as a capital gain). The bottom line in these numbers is that RRSPs are not a tax trap.

Part of the reason why people think otherwise relates to federal rules on how they're used. By the end of the year you turn 71, you have to convert them into RRIFs and make annual withdrawals with a mandatory minimum specified by the federal government.

Regret over using RRSPs is most likely to kick in with the tax bill associated with these RRIF withdrawals. But Mr. Golombek urges retirees to remember that they essentially didn't pay tax on the income they used in their working years to contribute to an RRSP and that they benefited from years of tax-free compounding.

CIBC did some polling to support Mr. Golombek's research and it indicates that more than half of people believe TFSAs are the better retirement savings vehicle than RRSPs. But this is only true if you will have a higher tax rate in retirement than in your working years, or if you will face a clawback of Old Age Security benefits. Money taken from a TFSA in retirement is not added to your income and thus won't trigger a clawback, while the opposite is true of RRSP or RRIF withdrawals.

TFSAs are an ideal retirement savings tool for lower-income Canadians because withdrawals from one of these accounts won't trigger a clawback of the Guaranteed Income Supplement. But for others, annual TFSA contributions may not be enough to build sufficient retirement savings. The contribution limit in 2018 is $5,500 and future increases are to be triggered only by rising inflation.

Mr. Golombek said that in 2015, just 35 per cent of households made an RRSP contribution and unused RRSP room exceeded $1-trillion. The percentage of tax filers who make an RRSP contribution has been on a downward slide for 15 years, and the number of withdrawals before retirement has been rising. The economy's ups and downs over the past 10 years help explain this, but so does the misinformed view that RRSPs should be avoided.
 
@mtainmn43 I also wouldn't be surprised if someday GIS is asset tested rather than income tested, as the intent of it is to raise seniors income out of poverty. Same for OAS to be honest.

The article is a good snapshot of people's views of RRSPs. The primary thing, as the article alludes to, is people forgot they didn't pay tax on the income they invested in RRSPs and are somehow surprised when they are taxed on withdrawals. RRSPs are still a very good tax deferred vehicle. Shows the importance of financial literacy. TFSAs aren't automatically better, it really depends on your current income bracket and expected retirement bracket.
 
@dioxide1410 I know growing up my parents always warned me not to use RRSPs (and this was before the invention of the TFSA so that was all we had). They'd tell me:

It's a stupid system. You put money in that you already pay tax on... Then when you take it out they tax you again!

I heard that until was over 20 years old and looked into it myself. Even now, when I've tried to talk to them about how it actually works, the most they're willing to concede is:

Well they must have changed how it works in the last few years, because it used to be taxing after tax money.
 
@silmarien It sounds like your parents just "expected" money back on their tax returns, or we're paying the appropriate amount and thus didn't get anything back, or it was automatically taken off and they got an extra $50-80 on their paycheck because of it and just never realized because "that's just my paycheck"
 
@silmarien
Well they must have changed how it works in the last few years, because it used to be taxing after tax money.

Perhaps people don't have this impression, but for a lot of people this does effectively happen.

They pay tax on money, and then they get a refund which they spend. So the amount of money contributed to their retirement savings is the after-tax amount.

Then they pay tax on the after-tax amount (plus growth).

So...maybe to some people it feels like this is what is happening?
 
@christian_bibin That might be the case for some. But I know for a fact that my parents believed that RRSPs had nothing to do with taxes at contribution. I don't know how that got so messed up. They also have weird ideas about how RESPs work, and that's why they saved nothing for my education. Not that I'm complaining that they didn't, but they thought that any and all contributions wound up "stolen by the government."
 
@dioxide1410 GIS should be income tested assuming an income from the TFSA balance calculated at the same % as the required RRSP draws. Remember that TFSA draws are not 'income'...... which is the point that makes the system today unfair.

Write the Finance Minister about this. I do. And repeat my request periodically. The longer the delay until a change is made the harder it will be to make the change politically. So you and /@catslock1 should make your voices heard.
 
@dioxide1410 I've been on this exact rant for a while now. Right now there is no motivation to make GIS and OAS asset tested because the TFSA limit is so low. But once you have a generation of retirees who have saved in their TFSA, the future generation is not going to want to pay to supplement their already decent retirement funds
 
@dioxide1410 The current OAS income test is around $72k. For a couple, with a 4% SWR, you would need an RSP of $3.6MM

I really don't think that's going to be an issue for people who are CHOOSING between an RSP and TFSA
 
@mtainmn43 I found this a bit unintuitive at first, but simplified it seems really obvious why RRSP vs TFSA is the same where tax rates on the two ends are the same.

It feels like the increased contribution and growth of an RRSP would be better, I guess, but it isn't. Quick math.

Growth can be summarized as some multiple. So 5% over 25 years would be a 3.4 multiple. Tax is just a multiple too - so 30% tax means you keep 70%. Here's the math for RRSP vs TFSA on $1000 of earnings.

TFSA = $1000 x 70% * 3.4

RRSP = $1000 x 3.4 * 70%

The only change is the ordering of the multiplication....but that obviously doesn't matter. It didn't seem intuitive to me until I did this, so maybe it helps someone else too. It just seemed like a weird fluke, even though it was obviously true.
 
@jadenhancock Agreed. And I think my calculation clearly shows why - when you do this you just change the tax rates. In my calc if you took 70% on the RRSP side and turned it into 80% it would be pretty clear why RRSP provides a benefit, which is again something that isn't immediately intuitive until you see the Simple Math calcs above.

Just didn't make sense to me at first how they matched, since I felt like the growth on a higher contribution shouldn't be magically equal to the increased liability. When explained that way I don't understand the math in this at all.

And when plugging numbers into the actual detailed calculation it still doesn't make intuitive sense.

But shown as just reordering some multiplication I can see why it doesn't matter.
 

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