Advice on cheap proteins.

[jcrew72]

@albertha849 Bioavailability of plant proteins is significantly lower than proteins from eggs, dairy or meat. This makes a difference for human performance under nutritional demand -- challenging work, sports, pregnancy/ lactation etc.

If you're a dietician, this is something you should really know about so your patients are getting accurate advice.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924224421006774
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924224422004526
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308814622008792

Tangent on plant sources: While the science is less established, I'm cautious of the lectins-autoimmune disease link that some have theorised. I personally limit kidney beans due to this and prefer eg. chickpeas, borlotti, cannelloni beans etc.

 

[albertha849]

@jcrew72 I am aware, I'm not sure why you thought this would be new information, but thank you for sharing lol

 

[tlnd]

@albertha849 Not completely true

 

[bannerman]

@walshmeister Probably meat in bulk. If you're able to buy half, or quarter, of a beast

Depending how you feel about it, raw meat intended for animals would be cheaper than supermarket meat. Eg Raw Essentials, or there are cheaper brands out there - K9cuisine. Obvs you'd wanna check what's in them, don't buy any with ground bone in perhaps, but offal is fine to eat. Pet food in NZ has to meet high safety regulations too (I've been told exactly the same as for humans, not sure the accuracy of that though).

 

[verajosefine]

@bannerman It’s cheap but still 4 times more per gram of protein than legumes - $14ish per kg for 22% protein

 

[cbscr64]

@walshmeister I study agriculture, and there are essential 3 amino acids that aren't present in plants or food from plants that all animals need. These are methionine, lysine, and tryptophan, and are only found from bacteria/ yeast, any meat, and animal products such as eggs or dairy. Herbivores can make their own animo acids with rumen through rumination.

All you need to do is look at the palm of your hand, and that's a good portion of red meats and bird meat. For fish, make a slap hand, and that's a good portion. I have been struggling with buying protein, but surprisingly, eating in moderating is making my meals cheaper.

In question of what's the cheapest source of protein without compromising certain amino acids, eggs and chicken and dairy.
If you want to eat legumes and nuts, sure, that's no problem, but as omnivores, we do need meat.

 

[howgullibleru]

@cbscr64 There are 8 or 9 essential amino acids that humans need.All of which are easily sourced from plant products.

 

[cbscr64]

@howgullibleru Can I ask if you're vegan?

 

[radicalmonk]

@cbscr64 He is speaking facts, why are you asking if he is vegan?
Unless you intend to argue the semantics about yeast. Vegans eat yeast products btw.

 

[godislove333]

@cbscr64 Yes. Most plant proteins aren’t complete. I believe there’s a way to combine plant proteins to complete them, and I thought quinoa was complete. However it’s tricky and you wouldn’t want to get it wrong. I also feel like you need to eat a whole lot more plants than meat to get the same amount of protein.

 

[cbscr64]

@godislove333 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21167687/

I don't care what people eat. I believe in moderation, like the recommended amount for meat being 350g to 500g a week. I believe in eating whole foods with ingredients, which can be commonly found in a kitchen.

The fact is you will need to eat more plants to get the equivalent amount of protein to meet the protein requirements of methionine, lysine, and tryptophan. To my knowledge, this is found in reduce amount from plants base foods. There is one nut I do recall completing this, pistachios. However, eating food that traveled from the other side of the world is a modern luxury.

I'm definitely coming from a prospective that most animal lovers dislike, and I understand this. I also have animals and would not want to see them suffer or die, but that's just the knowledge we need to live with. Otherwise, we could hope lab grown meat will take over, and then more people will be divided.

 

[godislove333]

@cbscr64 Oh I’m an animal lover too, and a scientist, and an omnivore. They’re not mutually exclusive like some seem to think. Lab meat sounds great, or there are thoughts one day we might 3D print food. Can’t taste much after Covid anyway. I eat only farmed meat. Couldn’t stomach meat during my pregnancy though, and lately it’s tricky to afford. I did a big shop yesterday my student loan came through which repaid the money I spent on course costs. So we are eating meat again. Mince is now $15/kg when last year it was getting up $25, so that is promising. I also buy the 3 for $20 packs a lot, eat a lot of sausages and processed meats, ugh. I tend to shop at Woolworths for convenience, click and collect, shopping with my young child is impossible! I’m finding this talk of protein powder being cheaper than meat to be very interesting. Tonight we’re having a big chicken curry, thighs, bone in. I feel bad I can’t get free range chicken but it is what it is. I gave a lot to SAFE when I was earning and I will again.

 

[shabeggeer]

@cbscr64 Uh.... who told you this?

I study agriculture, and there are essential 3 amino acids that aren't present in plants or food from plants that all animals need. These are methionine, lysine, and tryptophan, and are only found from bacteria/ yeast, any meat, and animal products such as eggs or dairy.

There are plant foods with each of those things. Yes sure it can take more variety in your diet to get all the necessary amino acids from plants, but it isn't impossible by any means. The only firm limit nutritionally on a plant based diet is B12, but that is very readily supplemented.

 

[cbscr64]

@shabeggeer Can I ask if you're vegan?

 

[shabeggeer]

@cbscr64 Nope, I'm an omnivore

 

[cbscr64]

@shabeggeer There is something called cascade deficiency effect, where lacking in a single amino acid or nutrient such as B12 can cause a cascade of deficiency leading to malnutrition. This is why people who go vegan lose weight faster than non vegans.

Plant contains a lot of amino acids, yes, but as animals, there are 3 mainmethionine, lysine, tryptophan we need that are not present in plants and as non ruminating animals we can't make them ourself.

Like I said, we don't need a lot of meat. Literally, eggs and dairy will be enough.
Also, we are unable as humans to physically convert other amino acids to these forms methionine, lysine, and tryptophan.

I am not saying don't be vegan to anyone because do whatever you want. I am giving information that is already present and to be unbiased.

 

[shabeggeer]

@cbscr64

there are 3 mainmethionine, lysine, tryptophan we need that are not present in plants

That just isn't true.

This is why people who go vegan lose weight faster than non vegans.

No, it's lower calorie intake.

I'm not telling anyone to be vegan, I'm just telling you you're wrong.

Tryptophan is found in a variety of nuts, seeds, grains and fruit.

There's heaps of lysine in beans.

Methionine is also found in nuts, beans and grains.

I don't know where this idea came from but it's wrong. Presumably since you say you're studying agriculture there are diets fed to stock that are made of plants and lack those amino acids? But that's not the same as saying there are NO plant sources of these. And it's not an issue for vegans eating a wide range of foods, either.

 

[cbscr64]

@shabeggeer You're right, I forgot they were present, but in signicantly reduced amounts.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16201743/#:~:text=Plant%20proteins%20have%20a%20reduced,tryptophan)%20means%20lower%20protein%20synthesis. (Context this research does indicate the benefits of people eating less meat and have increased benefits seeking food from green)

Like I said, I don't care what people eat.
However, vegans lack a lot of nutrients and proteins as they are required to eat more to gain the equivalent amount to eating meat.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gova/21167687/

The calorie deficit is definitely untrue. I can definitely find other research to site this statement. 100g of nuts, bread, and coconut milk, and has way more calories than 100g of chicken breast.
People only need 350 to 500g of meat a week. And people definitely get most of their calories in sugar and fats (can be vegetable oil). So, absolutely not in lower calorie intake.

Again, I was informed with the information for cascading deficiency effect by a professor and reading other articles.

I am not a doctor, I just read things and share my thoughts and research I had come across.
I believe that with food, eating in moderating is important, I also believe eating whole food or ingredients that are commonly found in the home kitchen is important.

 

[shabeggeer]

@cbscr64 Maybe fact check your claims BEFORE you make them next time. Lower amounts of certain amino acids =/= completely uavailable. A well planned vegan diet can be very healthy and contain plenty of the essential amino acids without needing to even think much about it.

You're still so wrong about vegans and weight loss. Even the recent twin study everyone has their knickers in a twist about found that the twins assigned to a healthy vegan diet had lower calorie intake. Not all vegans lose weight, some gain it, for exactly the reason you say- they eat a shitload of (often processed) carbs and fat. If you were right and they're all malnourished those people should all be losing weight.

I'm not even vegan, as I said, I am just irritated by people confidently proclaiming total bullshit online.

 

[cbscr64]

@shabeggeer Wow, I didn't know I was talking to a professional.
You're right. There are vegans that are fat and skinny if they eat complete rubbish. However, they fall outside the S.D. and is not the mean. you've seen one video of the twins or read one book, and you're out here claiming other people are lying? Nice to be you.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-in-children/A8539A11838C49A98FAF2DB2C6EE0AF2

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027313/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10665534/

Here are some articles talking about vegan diets long-term being unhealthy but healthy in either short term or a lot of subsitution.

When I look at food in general, I like to consider the country of origin, availability, reliability, affordability, and, most importantly, user-friendly (is it commonly shared in their community).

It's not total bullshit. Let me first make clear that there are benefits to vegan diets which have shown to help with obesity, cvd, diabetes, and it should be in cooperated in a diet at least twice a week. As we only need to consume 350 to 500g of meat a week to meet most human protein requirements. We, as an average NZ population, can go without meat for sure.

The vegan diet is restrictive, "when adhering to a vegan diet characterised by limited diversity, achieving a considerable intake of total protein remains attainable" (not my words. It's from the 3 articles provided), thereby indicating the unsustainablility of only eating plants (can be social, locational, financial). This alone is a small factor.
Simply put, you need to eat more for the edequate amount.

Most people can only have a maximum of 3% of their body weight as a rule of thumb, so an 80kg person would consume only 2-2.5 kg of food per day. Either you are gonna need a lot of nuts (which btw should be kept to 30g a day) and legumes to factor all of the reduced essential protein.

Yeah, I get it. You can simply factor in diverse plant foods like soy beans, pastatio, quinoa, amaranth, etc.
But at what cost?
If you factor in the need to consume imported food from outside NZ, this model would also be unsustainable as it relies on cheap labour from 3 world countries and the distance required to travel.

My point still stands that having meat in the diet is still better than only eating PBF. It's cheaper in consideration of moderation, not seasonal or foreign dependent, and accessible (financial and easy to prepare).

So no, it's not horse, bull, dog shit.
I must admit I had learned more about plant base protein, as the newer version is enlightening.
However, you too have mistake and assumptions.