30 hours free childcare and top-up fees

[chuckpeterson]

My 3yo son has just qualified for the 30 hours free childcare. We currently pay just over £1,800 per child for four days at a nursery in London and were hoping that the free hours would result in a decent chunk of that being reduced.

Our bill has only reduced by just under £500 though and on querying, the nursery has said that they just deduct the difference that they receive from the local authority (which works out at just under £5/hour). From reading, it sounds like this isn’t permitted and whilst they can charge for sundries (e.g. food, nappies etc.) they can’t just charge the difference. At the moment they’re charging us almost £70/day for these items…

I’m not sure if this is just par for the course or I whether I should be pushing for a bigger reduction if anyone has any experience? It’s an expensive nursery just we partly justified it on the reduction we’d be getting from this point.

Was torn between putting this is /legaladviceuk and /ukparenting so apologies if it’s be better placed in one of those.

 

[needsafriendtochatto]

@chuckpeterson Government funding for 30 hour childcare is term time only. This is a maximum 1140 hours for a child the term AFTER they turn 3 years old. This equates to 22 hours a week if 51 weeks a year is used.

Government funding is NOT ALLOWED to be “topped up” by nurseries or childcare providers as it has to be FREE.

However childcare providers can charge for additional items such as food/nappies/craft supplies and trips BUT this has to be an optional charge, it cannot be enforced.

Some charge a higher rate for any additional hours - this is used as a way to cover the loss of earnings (this is because the government funding falls way short on what most childcare providers charge as an hourly fee)

Most providers do not want to charge an additional fee in any way but sadly are forced to as are working to such a small profit as it is they cannot afford to lose the difference by providing the funded childcare places. This way it benefits parents by reducing their childcare costs but doesn’t negatively impact the childcare provider.

(I am a childcare provider)

 

[b%C3%ACnh1889]

@needsafriendtochatto I work for a chain of nurseries, part of my job is working out the fees for parents and I’m sure this is the correct answer.

We charge top up but in the sense that the gov hours are free and any additional hours are charged at a higher rate than was the government pays. If a child only does 30 hours the only additional charges are for food, if not having packed lunch. We do not provide nappies.

 

[garretfut]

@chuckpeterson Surely the straightforward thing to do is ask for a copy of the contract or invoice that breaks down the charge.

If they are charging £70 a day for food and nappies then that sounds pretty dubious and perhaps should be referred to the appropriate regulator.

 

[mirandaf]

@chuckpeterson It’s been a few years - but at our nursery I seem to remember that the government ‘free hours’ pays less than the hourly fee our nursey charged. Therefore the 30 ‘free hours’ actually only equated to 20 free hours for us in a week. We then obviously paid the top up.

Not ideal - but we have chosen a very specific Nursey for a number of reasons, so agreed. There were also some rules about only booking things in block days and bank holidays that I remember raised an eyebrow?

I was just happy that as the kids turned 3, we suddenly had some disposal cash again. Went from close to £2k a month to £1k in an year.

 

[eltan]

@mirandaf

Therefore the 30 ‘free hours’ actually only equated to 20 free hours for us in a week

This sounds about right for pro-rataing the term time free hours over the school holidays (where you get no free hours) so might be that rather than based on the nurserys fee amount

 

[mirandaf]

@eltan No - I was aware if that as well. I seem to remember the government 30 hours equalled around £5 an hour? The nursery was £9 per hour, per child (with 10% discount of the 2nd child!!!)

It meant that when they worked out the sun of the 30 hours, it meant it was 20 hours per week fully paid in term times. I do recall that over the summer/half term, prices would go up.

Like I mentioned - we are talking 4/5 years ago now. School was a blessing - went from paying thousands to pay low hundreds for breakfast and after school clubs. It felt like we had won the lottery!

 

[resjudicata]

@mirandaf People have successfully claimed overpayment back from nurseries. They’re not allowed to do what you’ve described. They’re prohibited from attributing a cash-equivalent value to the 30-free hours and charge you the remainder. 30-hours free means 30-hours free, not 30-hours at a reduced fee.

 

[mirandaf]

@resjudicata Good for them - personally I was happy to pay it. The government payment is too low and it means that the people we are entrusting to look after our kids are struggling. I would rather make sure I am paying for quality. They did a great job with the kids.

 

[markchen]

@mirandaf That’s not how it works - the nursery weren’t honest or worse, failed to understand how it worked!

 

[mirandaf]

@markchen It was how it worked 5 years ago - and I was very happy! Your experience may vary.

 

[markchen]

@mirandaf I’ve been a nursery manager for years …..that’s not how it works (and not since the FEEE scheme started 10 plus years ago) and its wrong for nurseries to misrepresent fees this way

 

[mirandaf]

@markchen So noted - it may not work like that, but that how it worked for us. They were quite open about it and was clearly explained. Looking over this thread seems that I wasn’t the only one in this type of situation. Maybe it was considered a voluntary top up?

Like I said, we were very happy with the service and happy to pay. No regrets.

 

[jesselynn]

@mirandaf Was gonna say something similar.

The likelihood is that your nursery is doing this so they can stay afloat, not because they’re making tons of money off you.

I believe that all nurseries operate on very small margins and many lose money.

It’s the govt’s fault for paying them far too little for ‘free’ places.

 

[dreynar]

@jesselynn Our 4 year old was at the lovely local pre-school nursery and had no extra top-ups. It was term time only and you had to provide a packed lunch but I would say at £1300 / month on top of this for the non term time cover plus food that they absolutely are making tons of money.

 

[dlinkered]

@dreynar Only the bigger groups really.

My girlfriend manages a medium sized nursery chain and 67% of their income goes straight on wages (embarrassingly bad wages I must add for those poor staff) and then they have to pay rent, massive energy costs (heating and AC all year round), insurance, uniforms, interest, employee benefits (of which there are very few), legal expenses, marketing, and the rest all from the 33% turnover they have left. That's not even counting resources for the settings like books, toys, and license payments to educational programs, nor is it counting food or consumables like wipes, spare nappies, blankets, furniture, maintenance.

The bills may seem high but it's not an industry that's raking in profit. In fact, big nursery groups are buying up all the smaller ones because it's the only way to make money in the industry;

https://theconversation.com/large-f...onsequences-for-parents-and-the-sector-175759

 

[truthisfreedom2019]

@jesselynn They operate on small margins after the nursery owner/s have paid themselves. Where else does the money go???? Majority of the nursery workers are under 25 and paid peanuts yet the parents pay thousands per child monthly. I recon our nursery takes in £120,000 / month minimum. (Based on 120 kids paying £1k month = 3 days).

 

[souheilzeit]

@chuckpeterson I would definitely query this further and ask for a breakdown of prices. The nursery we use, charges £8 a day for 3 meals (2 hot) and 2 snacks per child. So £70 seems ridiculous!

 

[resjudicata]

@souheilzeit London nurseries...

 

[magieden]

@souheilzeit pppfffttttt